Introduction
Is a Reformed Baptist more Baptist or more Reformed? It is a fair question, and the honest answer is that it often depends on the conversation. In this episode, Pastor David Charles traces how the Reformed Baptist confession stands within the broader Reformed stream while pressing the Reformation toward its fuller end on the nature of the church, its membership, and its relationship to the state. Along the way he reflects on liberty of conscience, the labels we give ourselves, and what it means to be small c catholic, Reformed with a Baptist corrective.
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Transcript
Keywords: Reformed Baptist identity, Protestant Reformation, Baptist corrective, church-state separation, religious liberty, Reformed theology, Baptist ecclesiology, Christian nationalism, liberty of conscience, confessional theology
Speakers: Pastor Jim Butler, Dr Richard Barcellos, Pastor David Charles
The Question
Pastor Jim Butler: So the next question, directed to Pastor Charles: Are Reformed Baptists more Baptist or more Reformed?
Reformed as a Corrective
Pastor David Charles: Well, if you take Reformed as a corrective that came about at the Reformation, it is a corrective of the perversions of the medieval church, and then also a correction to our cousins, the Lutherans. We are more Reformed. We are clearly in that stream. So our sacramentology is Reformed. In a lot of ways, we are Reformed as a corrective.
Baptist as a Further Correction
Pastor David Charles: But then we are Baptist in that we are a further correction. So like what Dr. Barcellos was saying a little while ago about our confession, our confession really is a full flowering of the Protestant Reformation. And I know how this sounds, but if I did not believe what I am about to say, I would be something else.
Pastor David Charles: There is a corrective with what constitutes the local church. Who is to be in the local church? How does the local church relate to the magistrates? Those are all necessary. And I would say, again, it is a necessary trajectory from earlier parts of the Reformation, and it came to a completion.
Why the Emphasis Shifts with the Conversation
Pastor David Charles: So although we can ask this question, which is more, I guess it depends on what the discussion is at the time. Right now I am very sympathetic to those who want to see something like what they call Christian nationalism. I understand that. But when I have those conversations, I clearly become more Baptist.
Pastor Jim Butler: More Baptist in that context.
The Baptist Contribution to Liberty of Conscience
Pastor David Charles: Because I am very much aware, and I am a patriot, I love my country, very much aware of the Baptist influence on our nation, particularly when it comes to liberty of conscience and distinguishing the church and the state. Now we have grown so accustomed to it, but consider the ideal of free churches. Could you imagine being in an area where the government is taking tax money from you to support a church that goes against your conscience? We cannot even imagine that. Well, the corrective to that was Baptist churches. So it depends on what the discussion is on the table, which way I tack.
Speaking with an Arminian Baptist Dispensationalist
Pastor Jim Butler: And if you were talking to an Arminian Baptist dispensationalist, you would be more Protestant or more…
Pastor David Charles: Reformed.
Pastor Jim Butler: Reformed than you would be Baptist.
Pastor David Charles: Yeah.
Pastor Jim Butler: I think that is helpful.
The Red, White, and Blue Bible
Dr. Richard Barcellos: I have a question. You love the Bible and you love your country. And I know that not simply because I know you and I heard you just say it, but I am looking at your Bible and it has three ribbons. A red one, a white one, and a blue one. Look at that. I hope the camera shows this.
Pastor Jim Butler: Is that the Patriot Bible?
Pastor David Charles: So you are talking about my Bible. This Bible, I think, is nearly 30 years old. And I was going to retire it, but there is a man at church, this guy is what they call a polymath. This guy can do everything. Makes good food, makes good beer. Am I allowed to say that on the podcast?
Pastor Jim Butler: Yeah, you can say it.
Pastor David Charles: And he saw that, and he knew that I was going to retire it. He took it and rebound it with leather, calfskin, put the ribbons in, did the blue.
Dr. Richard Barcellos: Who did this, though?
Pastor Jim Butler: He did the red, white, and blue. It was the little patriotic pizzazz.
Reformed in Soteriology, Baptistic in Ecclesiology
Pastor Jim Butler: No, that is, I think, a very helpful way to look at it. I typically say we are Reformed in our understanding of theology or soteriology, Baptistic in our ecclesiology. But I would agree, if I am dealing in a certain context, I am going to probably emphasize the Reformed more fully, and then Baptist in others.
Small c Catholic, Reformed with a Baptist Corrective
Pastor David Charles: Yeah, again, because labels are important. And I think the ones that we give ourselves are more important, because, unfortunately, in the same week I have been called antinomian and legalist. I have been called a hyper-Calvinist. So using those terms is really important. But what is helpful about the term Reformed is not just simply the soteriological recovery. It is also, as I mentioned earlier when Rich was at Toledo, what the Reformation did not change. So again, just as a matter of helping people understand who we are, I will often say we are small c catholic, reformed with a Baptist corrective. I want to wrap my arms around all that, but I want to be the one that uses it in a way that is faithful to what those terms actually mean.
Pastor Jim Butler: Yeah, that is good. Very helpful.
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